Topics

Thoughts on cf-for-k8s Use Cases


Krannich, Bernd
 

Hello all,

 

With cf-for-k8s turning 1.0, I started putting my thoughts around “what’s next after what’s next for cf-for-k8s?” in writing.

 

I wanted to share the resulting document with the community to get feedback, additional perspectives and maybe even to inspire thinking around the topics I collected:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hk19MkUOGQmP_dkoCwkogRQqlBwGE0Bpgr2U96JhW3I/edit?usp=sharing

 

Thanks,

Bernd

 

Bernd Krannich

SAP Cloud Platform

SAP SE

Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany

 

E bernd.krannich@...

 

Pflichtangaben/Mandatory Disclosure Statement: www.sap.com/impressum

 

Diese E-Mail kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, ist Ihnen eine Kenntnisnahme des Inhalts, eine Vervielfältigung oder Weitergabe der E-Mail ausdrücklich untersagt. Bitte benachrichtigen Sie uns und vernichten Sie die empfangene E-Mail. Vielen Dank.

 

This e-mail may contain trade secrets or privileged, undisclosed, or otherwise confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any review, copying, or distribution of it is strictly prohibited. Please inform us immediately and destroy the original transmittal. Thank you for your cooperation.


Wayne E. Seguin
 

Bernd,

Fantastic! I'm looking forward to reading it over, thank you for putting your thoughts down!

Thanks,

  ~Wayne

Wayne E. Seguin
CTO, Stark & Wayne LLC



On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:37 AM Krannich, Bernd <bernd.krannich@...> wrote:

Hello all,

 

With cf-for-k8s turning 1.0, I started putting my thoughts around “what’s next after what’s next for cf-for-k8s?” in writing.

 

I wanted to share the resulting document with the community to get feedback, additional perspectives and maybe even to inspire thinking around the topics I collected:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hk19MkUOGQmP_dkoCwkogRQqlBwGE0Bpgr2U96JhW3I/edit?usp=sharing

 

Thanks,

Bernd

 

Bernd Krannich

SAP Cloud Platform

SAP SE

Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany

 

E bernd.krannich@...

 

Pflichtangaben/Mandatory Disclosure Statement: www.sap.com/impressum

 

Diese E-Mail kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, ist Ihnen eine Kenntnisnahme des Inhalts, eine Vervielfältigung oder Weitergabe der E-Mail ausdrücklich untersagt. Bitte benachrichtigen Sie uns und vernichten Sie die empfangene E-Mail. Vielen Dank.

 

This e-mail may contain trade secrets or privileged, undisclosed, or otherwise confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any review, copying, or distribution of it is strictly prohibited. Please inform us immediately and destroy the original transmittal. Thank you for your cooperation.


Daniel Jones
 

Hey all!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Bernd.

It sounds like there are a lot of overheads for SAP in adopting cf-for-k8s. More operational complexity managing many clusters, and then the effort of migrating from cf-for-VMs to the new world. Is this all worth it? Are end-users clamouring to be able to deploy things to Kubernetes alongside their CF apps?

The notion of specifying different target runtime environments per isolation segment is intriguing. If this were possible, would it be simpler to stick with cf-for-VMs, and have a Kubernetes cluster for each tenant that runs apps and user workloads? This would be exactly the same as running Eirini on cf-for-VMs (which VMware published as an offering), except there'd be the option for one-Kubernetes-per-tenant.

As an aside, I do sincerely hope that the large CF vendors are intending to heavily market CF as the easy mode for Kubernetes. I wonder if all the migration efforts required to adopt cf-for-k8s are worthwhile to existing users.

Regards,
Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44 (0)79 8000 9153
EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists


On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 17:34, Wayne E. Seguin <wayneeseguin@...> wrote:
Bernd,

Fantastic! I'm looking forward to reading it over, thank you for putting your thoughts down!

Thanks,

  ~Wayne

Wayne E. Seguin
CTO, Stark & Wayne LLC



On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:37 AM Krannich, Bernd <bernd.krannich@...> wrote:

Hello all,

 

With cf-for-k8s turning 1.0, I started putting my thoughts around “what’s next after what’s next for cf-for-k8s?” in writing.

 

I wanted to share the resulting document with the community to get feedback, additional perspectives and maybe even to inspire thinking around the topics I collected:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hk19MkUOGQmP_dkoCwkogRQqlBwGE0Bpgr2U96JhW3I/edit?usp=sharing

 

Thanks,

Bernd

 

Bernd Krannich

SAP Cloud Platform

SAP SE

Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany

 

E bernd.krannich@...

 

Pflichtangaben/Mandatory Disclosure Statement: www.sap.com/impressum

 

Diese E-Mail kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, ist Ihnen eine Kenntnisnahme des Inhalts, eine Vervielfältigung oder Weitergabe der E-Mail ausdrücklich untersagt. Bitte benachrichtigen Sie uns und vernichten Sie die empfangene E-Mail. Vielen Dank.

 

This e-mail may contain trade secrets or privileged, undisclosed, or otherwise confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any review, copying, or distribution of it is strictly prohibited. Please inform us immediately and destroy the original transmittal. Thank you for your cooperation.


Krannich, Bernd
 

Hi Daniel,

 

Thank you very much for your additional questions. Let me try and answer some of them from my perspective (this is me talking, not necessarily the “official voice” of my employer):

 

> It sounds like there are a lot of overheads for SAP in adopting cf-for-k8s. More operational complexity managing many clusters, and then the effort of migrating from cf-for-VMs to the new world. Is this all worth it?

 

We actually approach the topic from a different angle: We have much more to manage than „just“ CF – but many other services – and so the question for us is which common layers we establish as basis for our offering. One decision SAP has taken (and I hear that VMware, IBM, and Suse aren’t maybe that much different) is to use Kubernetes as one such layer. And taking that decision at our scale means a huge task in managing many clusters anyways. Our answer for this is Gardener (shameless advertisement for an SAP-initiated Open Source project: https://gardener.cloud/), but YMMV.

 

> Are end-users clamouring to be able to deploy things to Kubernetes alongside their CF apps?

> […]

> I wonder if all the migration efforts required to adopt cf-for-k8s are worthwhile to existing users.

 

I believe I referred to this topic during our CF Summit panel discussion: I think there’s more than one group of end-users to consider:

  • People using CF today that are happy with it: I think they are in the “let me continue to `cf push` my apps” camp and I believe they require feature parity to the BOSH-managed world to continue doing what they do. I also think they don’t care about Kubernetes as an underlay similar to how they didn’t care about BOSH managing CF’s lifecycle before.
  • People that tried using CF but couldn’t build their scenarios. Some of these people have what I would call a “mixed workload”: Things that could run on CF and things that can’t. For them, the question is if they want a “hybrid” model where they `cf push` their stateless apps to one system and `kubectl apply` the other parts of their workload to a different system or if they – once they have taken on the more difficult part of learning Kubernetes anyways – also move over their stateless workloads to Kubernetes directly. For this group of people, I feel, a value prop of “just having the CF API next to kubectl” as an access point to their cluster is a good thing. That’s also part of the reason why I’m suggesting to remove as much of the CF control plane from the “workload cluster” in my document. It’s their cluster and probably they want to do non-CF stuff with it as well.
  • People that approach the topic coming from a Kubernetes background: Here, we keep seeing projects over projects essentially re-inventing PaaS (some of them with an added Git-Ops flavor on top). Things that are non-Kubernetes or things that can be deployed on Kubernetes but “feel” non-K8s-native will not get them engaged. Which is why a Cloud Foundry on Kubernetes will need to feel K8s-native to be successful with this – probably very big – group.

 

> The notion of specifying different target runtime environments per isolation segment is intriguing. If this were possible, would it be simpler to stick with cf-for-VMs, and have a Kubernetes cluster for each tenant that runs apps and user workloads?

 

Not for us, because it would still leave us with both BOSH-based deployments as well as having to manage a huge fleet of K8s-clusters, so all of the work with none of the benefits.

 

Regards,

Bernd

 

From: cf-dev@... <cf-dev@...>
Date: Friday, 13. November 2020 at 10:26
To: Discussions about Cloud Foundry projects and the system overall. <cf-dev@...>
Subject: Re: [cf-dev] Thoughts on cf-for-k8s Use Cases

Hey all!

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Bernd.

 

It sounds like there are a lot of overheads for SAP in adopting cf-for-k8s. More operational complexity managing many clusters, and then the effort of migrating from cf-for-VMs to the new world. Is this all worth it? Are end-users clamouring to be able to deploy things to Kubernetes alongside their CF apps?

 

The notion of specifying different target runtime environments per isolation segment is intriguing. If this were possible, would it be simpler to stick with cf-for-VMs, and have a Kubernetes cluster for each tenant that runs apps and user workloads? This would be exactly the same as running Eirini on cf-for-VMs (which VMware published as an offering), except there'd be the option for one-Kubernetes-per-tenant.

 

As an aside, I do sincerely hope that the large CF vendors are intending to heavily market CF as the easy mode for Kubernetes. I wonder if all the migration efforts required to adopt cf-for-k8s are worthwhile to existing users.

 

Regards,

Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO

+44 (0)79 8000 9153

EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists

 

 

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 17:34, Wayne E. Seguin <wayneeseguin@...> wrote:

Bernd,

 

Fantastic! I'm looking forward to reading it over, thank you for putting your thoughts down!


Thanks,

 

  ~Wayne

 

Wayne E. Seguin

CTO, Stark & Wayne LLC

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:37 AM Krannich, Bernd <bernd.krannich@...> wrote:

Hello all,

 

With cf-for-k8s turning 1.0, I started putting my thoughts around “what’s next after what’s next for cf-for-k8s?” in writing.

 

I wanted to share the resulting document with the community to get feedback, additional perspectives and maybe even to inspire thinking around the topics I collected:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hk19MkUOGQmP_dkoCwkogRQqlBwGE0Bpgr2U96JhW3I/edit?usp=sharing

 

Thanks,

Bernd

 

Bernd Krannich

SAP Cloud Platform

SAP SE

Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany

 

E bernd.krannich@...

 

Pflichtangaben/Mandatory Disclosure Statement: www.sap.com/impressum

 

Diese E-Mail kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, ist Ihnen eine Kenntnisnahme des Inhalts, eine Vervielfältigung oder Weitergabe der E-Mail ausdrücklich untersagt. Bitte benachrichtigen Sie uns und vernichten Sie die empfangene E-Mail. Vielen Dank.

 

This e-mail may contain trade secrets or privileged, undisclosed, or otherwise confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any review, copying, or distribution of it is strictly prohibited. Please inform us immediately and destroy the original transmittal. Thank you for your cooperation.


Simon D Moser
 

+1 to what Bernd wrote - this exactly echoes my thinking as well on the points made

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards

Simon Moser

Senior Technical Staff Member / IBM Master Inventor
Bluemix Application Platform Lead Architect
Dept. C727, IBM Research & Development Boeblingen

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IBM Deutschland Research & Development GmbH
Schoenaicher Str. 220
71032 Boeblingen
Phone: +49-7031-16-4304
Fax: +49-7031-16-4890
E-Mail: smoser@...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Gregor Pillen
Geschäftsführung: Dirk Wittkopp
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Böblingen
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart, HRB 243294

*******

ITIL has led people to think in siloes ("go fix change management").
Project Management has led people to think in finite units of work instead of streams of product.
Both are fundamental dysfunctions of the framework model, not failures of execution.
⁃ Rob England




From:        "Krannich, Bernd" <bernd.krannich@...>
To:        "cf-dev@..." <cf-dev@...>
Date:        16/11/2020 08:15
Subject:        [EXTERNAL] Re: [cf-dev] Thoughts on cf-for-k8s Use Cases
Sent by:        cf-dev@...




Hi Daniel, Thank you very much for your additional questions....                                                                                                                                                                                      
This Message Is From an External Sender
This message came from outside your organization.

Hi Daniel,

 

Thank you very much for your additional questions. Let me try and answer some of them from my perspective (this is me talking, not necessarily the “official voice” of my employer):

 

> It sounds like there are a lot of overheads for SAP in adopting cf-for-k8s. More operational complexity managing many clusters, and then the effort of migrating from cf-for-VMs to the new world. Is this all worth it?

 

We actually approach the topic from a different angle: We have much more to manage than „just“ CF – but many other services – and so the question for us is which common layers we establish as basis for our offering. One decision SAP has taken (and I hear that VMware, IBM, and Suse aren’t maybe that much different) is to use Kubernetes as one such layer. And taking that decision at our scale means a huge task in managing many clusters anyways. Our answer for this is Gardener (shameless advertisement for an SAP-initiated Open Source project: https://gardener.cloud/), but YMMV.

 

> Are end-users clamouring to be able to deploy things to Kubernetes alongside their CF apps?

> […]

> I wonder if all the migration efforts required to adopt cf-for-k8s are worthwhile to existing users.

 

I believe I referred to this topic during our CF Summit panel discussion: I think there’s more than one group of end-users to consider:

  • People using CF today that are happy with it: I think they are in the “let me continue to `cf push` my apps” camp and I believe they require feature parity to the BOSH-managed world to continue doing what they do. I also think they don’t care about Kubernetes as an underlay similar to how they didn’t care about BOSH managing CF’s lifecycle before.
  • People that tried using CF but couldn’t build their scenarios. Some of these people have what I would call a “mixed workload”: Things that could run on CF and things that can’t. For them, the question is if they want a “hybrid” model where they `cf push` their stateless apps to one system and `kubectl apply` the other parts of their workload to a different system or if they – once they have taken on the more difficult part of learning Kubernetes anyways – also move over their stateless workloads to Kubernetes directly. For this group of people, I feel, a value prop of “just having the CF API next to kubectl” as an access point to their cluster is a good thing. That’s also part of the reason why I’m suggesting to remove as much of the CF control plane from the “workload cluster” in my document. It’s their cluster and probably they want to do non-CF stuff with it as well.
  • People that approach the topic coming from a Kubernetes background: Here, we keep seeing projects over projects essentially re-inventing PaaS (some of them with an added Git-Ops flavor on top). Things that are non-Kubernetes or things that can be deployed on Kubernetes but “feel” non-K8s-native will not get them engaged. Which is why a Cloud Foundry on Kubernetes will need to feel K8s-native to be successful with this – probably very big – group.
 

> The notion of specifying different target runtime environments per isolation segment is intriguing. If this were possible, would it be simpler to stick with cf-for-VMs, and have a Kubernetes cluster for each tenant that runs apps and user workloads?

 

Not for us, because it would still leave us with both BOSH-based deployments as well as having to manage a huge fleet of K8s-clusters, so all of the work with none of the benefits.

 

Regards,

Bernd

 

From: cf-dev@... <cf-dev@...>
Date:
Friday, 13. November 2020 at 10:26
To:
Discussions about Cloud Foundry projects and the system overall. <cf-dev@...>
Subject:
Re: [cf-dev] Thoughts on cf-for-k8s Use Cases

Hey all!

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Bernd.

 

It sounds like there are a lot of overheads for SAP in adopting cf-for-k8s. More operational complexity managing many clusters, and then the effort of migrating from cf-for-VMs to the new world. Is this all worth it? Are end-users clamouring to be able to deploy things to Kubernetes alongside their CF apps?

 

The notion of specifying different target runtime environments per isolation segment is intriguing. If this were possible, would it be simpler to stick with cf-for-VMs, and have a Kubernetes cluster for each tenant that runs apps and user workloads? This would be exactly the same as running Eirini on cf-for-VMs (which VMware published as an offering), except there'd be the option for one-Kubernetes-per-tenant.

 

As an aside, I do sincerely hope that the large CF vendors are intending to heavily market CF as the easy mode for Kubernetes. I wonder if all the migration efforts required to adopt cf-for-k8s are worthwhile to existingusers.

 

Regards,

Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO

+44 (0)79 8000 9153

@DanielJonesEB

EngineerBetterLtd- More than cloud platform specialists

 

 

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 17:34, Wayne E. Seguin <wayneeseguin@...> wrote:

Bernd,

 

Fantastic! I'm looking forward to reading it over, thank you for putting your thoughts down!

Thanks,

 

  ~Wayne

 

Wayne E. Seguin

CTO, Stark & Wayne LLC

wayneeseguin@...

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:37 AM Krannich, Bernd <bernd.krannich@...> wrote:

Hello all,

 

With cf-for-k8s turning 1.0, I started putting my thoughts around “what’s next after what’s next for cf-for-k8s?” in writing.

 

I wanted to share the resulting document with the community to get feedback, additional perspectives and maybe even to inspire thinking around the topics I collected:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hk19MkUOGQmP_dkoCwkogRQqlBwGE0Bpgr2U96JhW3I/edit?usp=sharing

 

Thanks,

Bernd

 

Bernd Krannich

SAP Cloud Platform

SAP SE

Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany

 

E bernd.krannich@...

 

Pflichtangaben/Mandatory Disclosure Statement: www.sap.com/impressum

 

Diese E-Mail kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, ist Ihnen eine Kenntnisnahme des Inhalts, eine Vervielfältigung oder Weitergabe der E-Mail ausdrücklich untersagt. Bitte benachrichtigen Sie uns und vernichten Sie die empfangene E-Mail. Vielen Dank.

 

This e-mail may contain trade secrets or privileged, undisclosed, or otherwise confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any review, copying, or distribution of it is strictly prohibited. Please inform us immediately and destroy the original transmittal. Thank you for your cooperation.






Daniel Jones
 

Thanks for the clarifications! I think in my narrow perspective I forgot that y'all probably have a lot of other things to manage, so you really do get economies of scale from internal Kubernetes knowledge.

Regards,
Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44 (0)79 8000 9153
EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists


On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 at 07:58, Simon D Moser <smoser@...> wrote:
+1 to what Bernd wrote - this exactly echoes my thinking as well on the points made

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards

Simon Moser

Senior Technical Staff Member / IBM Master Inventor
Bluemix Application Platform Lead Architect
Dept. C727, IBM Research & Development Boeblingen

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IBM Deutschland Research & Development GmbH
Schoenaicher Str. 220
71032 Boeblingen
Phone: +49-7031-16-4304
Fax: +49-7031-16-4890
E-Mail: smoser@...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Gregor Pillen
Geschäftsführung: Dirk Wittkopp
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Böblingen
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart, HRB 243294

*******

ITIL has led people to think in siloes ("go fix change management").
Project Management has led people to think in finite units of work instead of streams of product.
Both are fundamental dysfunctions of the framework model, not failures of execution.
⁃ Rob England




From:        "Krannich, Bernd" <bernd.krannich@...>
To:        "cf-dev@..." <cf-dev@...>
Date:        16/11/2020 08:15
Subject:        [EXTERNAL] Re: [cf-dev] Thoughts on cf-for-k8s Use Cases
Sent by:        cf-dev@...




Hi Daniel, Thank you very much for your additional questions....                                                                                                                                                                                      
This Message Is From an External Sender
This message came from outside your organization.

Hi Daniel,

 

Thank you very much for your additional questions. Let me try and answer some of them from my perspective (this is me talking, not necessarily the “official voice” of my employer):

 

> It sounds like there are a lot of overheads for SAP in adopting cf-for-k8s. More operational complexity managing many clusters, and then the effort of migrating from cf-for-VMs to the new world. Is this all worth it?

 

We actually approach the topic from a different angle: We have much more to manage than „just“ CF – but many other services – and so the question for us is which common layers we establish as basis for our offering. One decision SAP has taken (and I hear that VMware, IBM, and Suse aren’t maybe that much different) is to use Kubernetes as one such layer. And taking that decision at our scale means a huge task in managing many clusters anyways. Our answer for this is Gardener (shameless advertisement for an SAP-initiated Open Source project: https://gardener.cloud/), but YMMV.

 

> Are end-users clamouring to be able to deploy things to Kubernetes alongside their CF apps?

> […]

> I wonder if all the migration efforts required to adopt cf-for-k8s are worthwhile to existing users.

 

I believe I referred to this topic during our CF Summit panel discussion: I think there’s more than one group of end-users to consider:

  • People using CF today that are happy with it: I think they are in the “let me continue to `cf push` my apps” camp and I believe they require feature parity to the BOSH-managed world to continue doing what they do. I also think they don’t care about Kubernetes as an underlay similar to how they didn’t care about BOSH managing CF’s lifecycle before.
  • People that tried using CF but couldn’t build their scenarios. Some of these people have what I would call a “mixed workload”: Things that could run on CF and things that can’t. For them, the question is if they want a “hybrid” model where they `cf push` their stateless apps to one system and `kubectl apply` the other parts of their workload to a different system or if they – once they have taken on the more difficult part of learning Kubernetes anyways – also move over their stateless workloads to Kubernetes directly. For this group of people, I feel, a value prop of “just having the CF API next to kubectl” as an access point to their cluster is a good thing. That’s also part of the reason why I’m suggesting to remove as much of the CF control plane from the “workload cluster” in my document. It’s their cluster and probably they want to do non-CF stuff with it as well.
  • People that approach the topic coming from a Kubernetes background: Here, we keep seeing projects over projects essentially re-inventing PaaS (some of them with an added Git-Ops flavor on top). Things that are non-Kubernetes or things that can be deployed on Kubernetes but “feel” non-K8s-native will not get them engaged. Which is why a Cloud Foundry on Kubernetes will need to feel K8s-native to be successful with this – probably very big – group.
 

> The notion of specifying different target runtime environments per isolation segment is intriguing. If this were possible, would it be simpler to stick with cf-for-VMs, and have a Kubernetes cluster for each tenant that runs apps and user workloads?

 

Not for us, because it would still leave us with both BOSH-based deployments as well as having to manage a huge fleet of K8s-clusters, so all of the work with none of the benefits.

 

Regards,

Bernd

 

From: cf-dev@... <cf-dev@...>
Date:
Friday, 13. November 2020 at 10:26
To:
Discussions about Cloud Foundry projects and the system overall. <cf-dev@...>
Subject:
Re: [cf-dev] Thoughts on cf-for-k8s Use Cases

Hey all!

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Bernd.

 

It sounds like there are a lot of overheads for SAP in adopting cf-for-k8s. More operational complexity managing many clusters, and then the effort of migrating from cf-for-VMs to the new world. Is this all worth it? Are end-users clamouring to be able to deploy things to Kubernetes alongside their CF apps?

 

The notion of specifying different target runtime environments per isolation segment is intriguing. If this were possible, would it be simpler to stick with cf-for-VMs, and have a Kubernetes cluster for each tenant that runs apps and user workloads? This would be exactly the same as running Eirini on cf-for-VMs (which VMware published as an offering), except there'd be the option for one-Kubernetes-per-tenant.

 

As an aside, I do sincerely hope that the large CF vendors are intending to heavily market CF as the easy mode for Kubernetes. I wonder if all the migration efforts required to adopt cf-for-k8s are worthwhile to existingusers.

 

Regards,

Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO

+44 (0)79 8000 9153

@DanielJonesEB

EngineerBetterLtd- More than cloud platform specialists

 

 

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 17:34, Wayne E. Seguin <wayneeseguin@...> wrote:

Bernd,

 

Fantastic! I'm looking forward to reading it over, thank you for putting your thoughts down!

Thanks,

 

  ~Wayne

 

Wayne E. Seguin

CTO, Stark & Wayne LLC

wayneeseguin@...

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:37 AM Krannich, Bernd <bernd.krannich@...> wrote:

Hello all,

 

With cf-for-k8s turning 1.0, I started putting my thoughts around “what’s next after what’s next for cf-for-k8s?” in writing.

 

I wanted to share the resulting document with the community to get feedback, additional perspectives and maybe even to inspire thinking around the topics I collected:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hk19MkUOGQmP_dkoCwkogRQqlBwGE0Bpgr2U96JhW3I/edit?usp=sharing

 

Thanks,

Bernd

 

Bernd Krannich

SAP Cloud Platform

SAP SE

Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany

 

E bernd.krannich@...

 

Pflichtangaben/Mandatory Disclosure Statement: www.sap.com/impressum

 

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Eric Malm
 

Hi, Bernd,

Thanks very much for the detailed write-up about future directions for cf-for-k8s, and for your elaboration on relevant operator segments, which matches our perspective on the community landscape. The specific needs and objectives you've expressed also align to feedback and questions we have received so far about how cf-for-k8s can achieve the same security and scale outcomes that CF has on BOSH, as well as how it could improve its operational flexibility, reliability, and interoperability with existing K8s clusters and their workloads. Sounds like a great roadmap for ongoing collaboration as we keep bringing CF outcomes to K8s!

Best,
Eric


From: cf-dev@... <cf-dev@...> on behalf of Daniel Jones via lists.cloudfoundry.org <daniel.jones=engineerbetter.com@...>
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 7:04 AM
To: Discussions about Cloud Foundry projects and the system overall. <cf-dev@...>
Subject: Re: [cf-dev] Thoughts on cf-for-k8s Use Cases
 
Thanks for the clarifications! I think in my narrow perspective I forgot that y'all probably have a lot of other things to manage, so you really do get economies of scale from internal Kubernetes knowledge.

Regards,
Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44 (0)79 8000 9153
EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists


On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 at 07:58, Simon D Moser <smoser@...> wrote:
+1 to what Bernd wrote - this exactly echoes my thinking as well on the points made

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards

Simon Moser

Senior Technical Staff Member / IBM Master Inventor
Bluemix Application Platform Lead Architect
Dept. C727, IBM Research & Development Boeblingen

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From:        "Krannich, Bernd" <bernd.krannich@...>
To:        "cf-dev@..." <cf-dev@...>
Date:        16/11/2020 08:15
Subject:        [EXTERNAL] Re: [cf-dev] Thoughts on cf-for-k8s Use Cases
Sent by:        cf-dev@...




Hi Daniel, Thank you very much for your additional questions....                                                                                                                                                                                      
This Message Is From an External Sender
This message came from outside your organization.

Hi Daniel,

 

Thank you very much for your additional questions. Let me try and answer some of them from my perspective (this is me talking, not necessarily the “official voice” of my employer):

 

> It sounds like there are a lot of overheads for SAP in adopting cf-for-k8s. More operational complexity managing many clusters, and then the effort of migrating from cf-for-VMs to the new world. Is this all worth it?

 

We actually approach the topic from a different angle: We have much more to manage than „just“ CF – but many other services – and so the question for us is which common layers we establish as basis for our offering. One decision SAP has taken (and I hear that VMware, IBM, and Suse aren’t maybe that much different) is to use Kubernetes as one such layer. And taking that decision at our scale means a huge task in managing many clusters anyways. Our answer for this is Gardener (shameless advertisement for an SAP-initiated Open Source project: https://gardener.cloud/), but YMMV.

 

> Are end-users clamouring to be able to deploy things to Kubernetes alongside their CF apps?

> […]

> I wonder if all the migration efforts required to adopt cf-for-k8s are worthwhile to existing users.

 

I believe I referred to this topic during our CF Summit panel discussion: I think there’s more than one group of end-users to consider:

  • People using CF today that are happy with it: I think they are in the “let me continue to `cf push` my apps” camp and I believe they require feature parity to the BOSH-managed world to continue doing what they do. I also think they don’t care about Kubernetes as an underlay similar to how they didn’t care about BOSH managing CF’s lifecycle before.
  • People that tried using CF but couldn’t build their scenarios. Some of these people have what I would call a “mixed workload”: Things that could run on CF and things that can’t. For them, the question is if they want a “hybrid” model where they `cf push` their stateless apps to one system and `kubectl apply` the other parts of their workload to a different system or if they – once they have taken on the more difficult part of learning Kubernetes anyways – also move over their stateless workloads to Kubernetes directly. For this group of people, I feel, a value prop of “just having the CF API next to kubectl” as an access point to their cluster is a good thing. That’s also part of the reason why I’m suggesting to remove as much of the CF control plane from the “workload cluster” in my document. It’s their cluster and probably they want to do non-CF stuff with it as well.
  • People that approach the topic coming from a Kubernetes background: Here, we keep seeing projects over projects essentially re-inventing PaaS (some of them with an added Git-Ops flavor on top). Things that are non-Kubernetes or things that can be deployed on Kubernetes but “feel” non-K8s-native will not get them engaged. Which is why a Cloud Foundry on Kubernetes will need to feel K8s-native to be successful with this – probably very big – group.
 

> The notion of specifying different target runtime environments per isolation segment is intriguing. If this were possible, would it be simpler to stick with cf-for-VMs, and have a Kubernetes cluster for each tenant that runs apps and user workloads?

 

Not for us, because it would still leave us with both BOSH-based deployments as well as having to manage a huge fleet of K8s-clusters, so all of the work with none of the benefits.

 

Regards,

Bernd

 

From: cf-dev@... <cf-dev@...>
Date:
Friday, 13. November 2020 at 10:26
To:
Discussions about Cloud Foundry projects and the system overall. <cf-dev@...>
Subject:
Re: [cf-dev] Thoughts on cf-for-k8s Use Cases

Hey all!

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Bernd.

 

It sounds like there are a lot of overheads for SAP in adopting cf-for-k8s. More operational complexity managing many clusters, and then the effort of migrating from cf-for-VMs to the new world. Is this all worth it? Are end-users clamouring to be able to deploy things to Kubernetes alongside their CF apps?

 

The notion of specifying different target runtime environments per isolation segment is intriguing. If this were possible, would it be simpler to stick with cf-for-VMs, and have a Kubernetes cluster for each tenant that runs apps and user workloads? This would be exactly the same as running Eirini on cf-for-VMs (which VMware published as an offering), except there'd be the option for one-Kubernetes-per-tenant.

 

As an aside, I do sincerely hope that the large CF vendors are intending to heavily market CF as the easy mode for Kubernetes. I wonder if all the migration efforts required to adopt cf-for-k8s are worthwhile to existingusers.

 

Regards,

Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO

+44 (0)79 8000 9153

@DanielJonesEB

EngineerBetterLtd- More than cloud platform specialists

 

 

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 17:34, Wayne E. Seguin <wayneeseguin@...> wrote:

Bernd,

 

Fantastic! I'm looking forward to reading it over, thank you for putting your thoughts down!

Thanks,

 

  ~Wayne

 

Wayne E. Seguin

CTO, Stark & Wayne LLC

wayneeseguin@...

 

 

 

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:37 AM Krannich, Bernd <bernd.krannich@...> wrote:

Hello all,

 

With cf-for-k8s turning 1.0, I started putting my thoughts around “what’s next after what’s next for cf-for-k8s?” in writing.

 

I wanted to share the resulting document with the community to get feedback, additional perspectives and maybe even to inspire thinking around the topics I collected:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hk19MkUOGQmP_dkoCwkogRQqlBwGE0Bpgr2U96JhW3I/edit?usp=sharing

 

Thanks,

Bernd

 

Bernd Krannich

SAP Cloud Platform

SAP SE

Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany

 

E bernd.krannich@...

 

Pflichtangaben/Mandatory Disclosure Statement: www.sap.com/impressum

 

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