Date   

Re: Is anyone working on a CF CRD & Controller?

pierre Oblin
 

Just as inspiration, and maybe spike implémentation, a déclarative approach based on terraform HCL is probably a good way to start

Le mar. 28 avr. 2020 à 19:18, Zach Robinson <zrobinson@...> a écrit :
Hey Daniel,

Wanted to follow up. There's now a doc to start building out our understanding of CRDs here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mIMH4uEtIJkZjVa5mKWJoIAIeVyM4gVqO-Cx5JtYgtE/edit?usp=sharing

Shared with the mailing list under topic "Exploring CRDs in CF".  Would love to get your thoughts and feedback.

-Zach

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:09 PM Zach Robinson <zrobinson@...> wrote:
Zach, am I correct in thinking that the current approach is the have clients interact with CloudController, have CloudController persist to CCDB as per usual, and then CloudController post stuff to CRDs in the Kube API?

Yes, this is the current approach for the CRDs that Cloud Controller interacts with now. There are also reconciliation loops that we run for these resources analogous to how we've always reconciled CCDB state with Diego.

I think this method has developed organically from our goal of preserving in-place workflows via having the same API surface, allowing cli to function without changes, while trying to consume existing functionality in k8s. I think the longer term goal here is to review that usage and be more intentional about how we expect CRDs to fit into the system as a whole.

-Zach

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:10 AM Daniel Jones <daniel.jones@...> wrote:
Thanks for that folks - especially for such a long and detailed response, Zach. Much appreciated.

It's great that folks are already thinking about this.

Zach, am I correct in thinking that the current approach is the have clients interact with CloudController, have CloudController persist to CCDB as per usual, and then CloudController post stuff to CRDs in the Kube API?

I'd kinda imagined things going the other way around, introducing the CRDs as a new user interface, and have the controllers do the diff and then post/put to CloudController. The intention here would be saving Kubes-native folks (and CI servers!) from having to deal with the imperative interface. I was working on the assumption that all CF concepts would be exposed as CRDs.

From a CAPI perspective, I've been thinking more about representing apps and push as CRDs, and I believe the Eirini team has some thoughts in this area as well.

I'd always dodged this area in cf-converger as it was the most complicated, and the biggest break from the current CF experience :)

For example when we look at orgs/spaces - we have to wonder if those are even resources we want to represent as CRDs, when k8s already has a namespace construct.

I can imagine that the logical concept of orgs may one day map onto distinct Kubernetes namespaces, but I hadn't imagined that orgs would in any way disappear, or not be configurable via the Kubernetes approach.

It'd be great to hear what others think on all of this.

Thanks again for sharing, Keshav and Zach.

Regards,
Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44 (0)79 8000 9153
EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists


On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 23:45, Zach Robinson <zrobinson@...> wrote:
Hey Daniel,

Thanks for starting a convo. The timing couldn't be better. I can share some of the thinking going on in both CAPI and VMware land. 

But first and foremost I want to address the question: "Is there any point in the community working on such a solution, or are one of the bigger companies secretly working on something that would supersede any community effort?" - yes, yes, a thousand times yes to community collaboration!

The topic of CRDs is kind of huge. It's really great to hear your focus is on things like orgs/spaces. From a CAPI perspective, I've been thinking more about representing apps and push as CRDs, and I believe the Eirini team has some thoughts in this area as well. There's a lot of ground to cover clearly.

In terms of things that are in flight now.
  • Keshav kindly shared that networking is looking to provide Route CRDs.
  • Networking is also exploring providing Security Groups as CRDs.
  • CAPI is integrating kpack into CF to provide buildpack staging. This is done by generating kpack CRDs.
Currently these CRDs are being created and owned by the Cloud Controller, which enables us to present backward compatible APIs to our CLI and UI like stratos, while moving the implementation down into controllers fronted by CRDs.  There's an obvious potential to interact with k8s directly in the future, but the current use case is to be used by CC. Except for kpack which is an excellent stand alone tool already :).  

These efforts are great and are allowing us to begin a path towards using existing k8s tooling and projects to provide Cloud Foundry outcomes, but obviously there's a lot further to go.

From VMware's side, over the last couple weeks, there has been an effort to explore what it might look like to use CRDs entirely as a source of truth for *all* CF data, in place of a SQL database, as a learning exercise, not necessarily a desired outcome. The primary goal of that effort was to start the convo that we're having now, and to be able to contribute in a meaningful way.  Note there are no VMware-based plans to dump a fully fledged proposal. We need to start from a premise as a community of understanding how/why/and which resources are valuable as CRDs.

For example when we look at orgs/spaces - we have to wonder if those are even resources we want to represent as CRDs, when k8s already has a namespace construct.

I think we'll need to start some dedicated working document to collaborate in. I had planned on facilitating that after some of the investigation that VMware has wraps up, but I don't think that's a reason to hold off if you or somebody else in the community has thoughts they want to start getting down. CAPI and other teams can contribute to an existing doc if that makes sense. Any other thoughts you'd prefer for next steps?

Looking forward to a continued conversation.

-Zach


On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:56 AM Keshav Sharma <ksharma@...> wrote:
Hi Daniel, 
The CF-K8s Networking team is currently working on a solution using Route CRDto introduce a “Route” custom resource and have Cloud Controller make/update these directly as part of the `cf map-route` and `cf unmap-route` workflows. Happy to discuss this further in our Cloud-Foundry Slack- #networking group. Regards, Keshav Sharma Product Manager | CF-K8s-Networking VMware

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 3:01 AM Daniel Jones <daniel.jones@...> wrote:
Hi all,

In the spirit of community, I'm going to ask this question outright and in the open - is anyone (*looks at VMware MAPBU*) working on a CRD and accompanying controller for CF on Kubernetes?

Anyone with a non-trivial amount of Cloud Foundry experience knows that whilst the imperative interface of the CF CLI is great for exploratory work, it's far from ideal for production environments. I make a point of telling folks in CF training courses that no human should be using the CLI in production, other than for debugging.

A declarative interface for CF has always been desirable, and its omission is going to become even more stark once running CF on Kubernetes is the norm. We've had cf-mgmt which is close, but involves more steps than is ideal.

It'd be great to have one or more CRDs that represent the state of a Cloud Foundry, and accompanying controllers that converge upon that state. When I talk about state, I mean things like orgs, spaces, service broker registrations, service instances, roles and so on.

Four years ago I started work on a project called cf-converger to diff and converge a Cloud Foundry instance on a state declared in YAML. I got distracted with running a business and doing billable work, so whilst the concept was proven, it never really got to a state of usefulness. Plus, I seemed to spend half my coding time just writing excessively-verbose chained method calls on the official Java CF client :D 

I see such a solution as an inevitability in the Kubernetes-based future. Whilst I'm personally tempted to resurrect the project, it makes very little sense for a company like EngineerBetter to divert resources from billable work to a project that is needed, but can't be monetised.

Are any of the big players working on something similar? Is it something we should all be thinking and talking about? Is there any point in the community working on such a solution, or are one of the bigger companies secretly working on something that would supersede any community effort?

Regards,
Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44 (0)79 8000 9153
EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists


Release Integration No Longer Testing CATs on BOSH Lite

Dave Walter <dwalter@...>
 

Hi All,

The CF Release Integration team wanted to give y'all a heads up that we have decided to stop running CATs on our BOSH lite CI environment due to its flakey nature and the time wasted debugging.

Going forward, we are only validating new changes on BOSH lite by running smoke-tests. Please feel free to reach out if you have any questions.

Regards,
Dave


Re: Is anyone working on a CF CRD & Controller?

Vlad Iovanov
 

On the Quarks team we’ve been working with CRDs for some time and we’d like to socialize with other teams doing similar work.

Maybe we could setup a slack channel specific to this?

Cheers,

Vlad

 

From: Daniel Jones
Sent: Friday, May 1, 2020 1:31 PM
To: Discussions about Cloud Foundry projects and the system overall.
Subject: Re: [cf-dev] Is anyone working on a CF CRD & Controller?

 

Ta! I've been on full-time billable work with customers all week, but I'll take a look now.


Regards,

Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO

+44 (0)79 8000 9153

EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists

 

 

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 at 18:17, Zach Robinson <zrobinson@...> wrote:

Hey Daniel,

 

Wanted to follow up. There's now a doc to start building out our understanding of CRDs here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mIMH4uEtIJkZjVa5mKWJoIAIeVyM4gVqO-Cx5JtYgtE/edit?usp=sharing

 

Shared with the mailing list under topic "Exploring CRDs in CF".  Would love to get your thoughts and feedback.

 

-Zach

 

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:09 PM Zach Robinson <zrobinson@...> wrote:

Zach, am I correct in thinking that the current approach is the have clients interact with CloudController, have CloudController persist to CCDB as per usual, and then CloudController post stuff to CRDs in the Kube API?

 

Yes, this is the current approach for the CRDs that Cloud Controller interacts with now. There are also reconciliation loops that we run for these resources analogous to how we've always reconciled CCDB state with Diego.

 

I think this method has developed organically from our goal of preserving in-place workflows via having the same API surface, allowing cli to function without changes, while trying to consume existing functionality in k8s. I think the longer term goal here is to review that usage and be more intentional about how we expect CRDs to fit into the system as a whole.

 

-Zach

 

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:10 AM Daniel Jones <daniel.jones@...> wrote:

Thanks for that folks - especially for such a long and detailed response, Zach. Much appreciated.

 

It's great that folks are already thinking about this.

 

Zach, am I correct in thinking that the current approach is the have clients interact with CloudController, have CloudController persist to CCDB as per usual, and then CloudController post stuff to CRDs in the Kube API?

 

I'd kinda imagined things going the other way around, introducing the CRDs as a new user interface, and have the controllers do the diff and then post/put to CloudController. The intention here would be saving Kubes-native folks (and CI servers!) from having to deal with the imperative interface. I was working on the assumption that all CF concepts would be exposed as CRDs.

 

From a CAPI perspective, I've been thinking more about representing apps and push as CRDs, and I believe the Eirini team has some thoughts in this area as well.

 

I'd always dodged this area in cf-converger as it was the most complicated, and the biggest break from the current CF experience :)

 

For example when we look at orgs/spaces - we have to wonder if those are even resources we want to represent as CRDs, when k8s already has a namespace construct.

 

I can imagine that the logical concept of orgs may one day map onto distinct Kubernetes namespaces, but I hadn't imagined that orgs would in any way disappear, or not be configurable via the Kubernetes approach.

 

It'd be great to hear what others think on all of this.

Thanks again for sharing, Keshav and Zach.


Regards,

Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO

+44 (0)79 8000 9153

EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists

 

 

On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 23:45, Zach Robinson <zrobinson@...> wrote:

Hey Daniel,

 

Thanks for starting a convo. The timing couldn't be better. I can share some of the thinking going on in both CAPI and VMware land. 

 

But first and foremost I want to address the question: "Is there any point in the community working on such a solution, or are one of the bigger companies secretly working on something that would supersede any community effort?" - yes, yes, a thousand times yes to community collaboration!

 

The topic of CRDs is kind of huge. It's really great to hear your focus is on things like orgs/spaces. From a CAPI perspective, I've been thinking more about representing apps and push as CRDs, and I believe the Eirini team has some thoughts in this area as well. There's a lot of ground to cover clearly.

 

In terms of things that are in flight now.

  • Keshav kindly shared that networking is looking to provide Route CRDs.
  • Networking is also exploring providing Security Groups as CRDs.
  • CAPI is integrating kpack into CF to provide buildpack staging. This is done by generating kpack CRDs.

Currently these CRDs are being created and owned by the Cloud Controller, which enables us to present backward compatible APIs to our CLI and UI like stratos, while moving the implementation down into controllers fronted by CRDs.  There's an obvious potential to interact with k8s directly in the future, but the current use case is to be used by CC. Except for kpack which is an excellent stand alone tool already :).  

 

These efforts are great and are allowing us to begin a path towards using existing k8s tooling and projects to provide Cloud Foundry outcomes, but obviously there's a lot further to go.

 

From VMware's side, over the last couple weeks, there has been an effort to explore what it might look like to use CRDs entirely as a source of truth for *all* CF data, in place of a SQL database, as a learning exercise, not necessarily a desired outcome. The primary goal of that effort was to start the convo that we're having now, and to be able to contribute in a meaningful way.  Note there are no VMware-based plans to dump a fully fledged proposal. We need to start from a premise as a community of understanding how/why/and which resources are valuable as CRDs.

 

For example when we look at orgs/spaces - we have to wonder if those are even resources we want to represent as CRDs, when k8s already has a namespace construct.

 

I think we'll need to start some dedicated working document to collaborate in. I had planned on facilitating that after some of the investigation that VMware has wraps up, but I don't think that's a reason to hold off if you or somebody else in the community has thoughts they want to start getting down. CAPI and other teams can contribute to an existing doc if that makes sense. Any other thoughts you'd prefer for next steps?

 

Looking forward to a continued conversation.

 

-Zach

 

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:56 AM Keshav Sharma <ksharma@...> wrote:

Hi Daniel, 
The CF-K8s Networking team is currently working on a solution using Route CRD
to introduce a “Route” custom resource and have Cloud Controller make/update these directly as part of the `cf map-route` and `cf unmap-route` workflows. Happy to discuss this further in our Cloud-Foundry Slack- #networking group. Regards, Keshav Sharma Product Manager | CF-K8s-Networking VMware

 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 3:01 AM Daniel Jones <daniel.jones@...> wrote:

Hi all,

 

In the spirit of community, I'm going to ask this question outright and in the open - is anyone (*looks at VMware MAPBU*) working on a CRD and accompanying controller for CF on Kubernetes?

 

Anyone with a non-trivial amount of Cloud Foundry experience knows that whilst the imperative interface of the CF CLI is great for exploratory work, it's far from ideal for production environments. I make a point of telling folks in CF training courses that no human should be using the CLI in production, other than for debugging.

 

A declarative interface for CF has always been desirable, and its omission is going to become even more stark once running CF on Kubernetes is the norm. We've had cf-mgmt which is close, but involves more steps than is ideal.

 

It'd be great to have one or more CRDs that represent the state of a Cloud Foundry, and accompanying controllers that converge upon that state. When I talk about state, I mean things like orgs, spaces, service broker registrations, service instances, roles and so on.

 

Four years ago I started work on a project called cf-converger to diff and converge a Cloud Foundry instance on a state declared in YAML. I got distracted with running a business and doing billable work, so whilst the concept was proven, it never really got to a state of usefulness. Plus, I seemed to spend half my coding time just writing excessively-verbose chained method calls on the official Java CF client :D 

 

I see such a solution as an inevitability in the Kubernetes-based future. Whilst I'm personally tempted to resurrect the project, it makes very little sense for a company like EngineerBetter to divert resources from billable work to a project that is needed, but can't be monetised.

 

Are any of the big players working on something similar? Is it something we should all be thinking and talking about? Is there any point in the community working on such a solution, or are one of the bigger companies secretly working on something that would supersede any community effort?


Regards,

Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO

+44 (0)79 8000 9153

EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists

 


Re: Stepping down as CF Extension PMC lead and a small TBT present

Daniel Jones
 

Thanks Max - it brought a smile to my face to go over those photos and see all the friends I've had the opportunity to make in the ecosystem, and remember the fun times at conferences.

Regards,
Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44 (0)79 8000 9153
EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists


On Fri, 1 May 2020 at 09:54, Krannich, Bernd <bernd.krannich@...> wrote:

Hi Dr. Max,

 

Sad to see you stepping down as Extensions PMC lead. Thank you very much for all you have done for the CF community!

 

I’m hopeful that one day in the (hopefully not too distant) future we’ll again bump into each other at one of the great open source conferences somewhere in the world so that we can hang out together.

 

All the best,

Bernd

 

Bernd Krannich

SAP Cloud Platform

SAP SE

Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany

 

bernd.krannich@...

 

Pflichtangaben/Mandatory Disclosure Statement: www.sap.com/impressum

 

Diese E-Mail kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, ist Ihnen eine Kenntnisnahme des Inhalts, eine Vervielfältigung oder Weitergabe der E-Mail ausdrücklich untersagt. Bitte benachrichtigen Sie uns und vernichten Sie die empfangene E-Mail. Vielen Dank.

 

This e-mail may contain trade secrets or privileged, undisclosed, or otherwise confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any review, copying, or distribution of it is strictly prohibited. Please inform us immediately and destroy the original transmittal. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

 

From: <cf-dev@...> on behalf of Swarna Podila <spodila@...>
Reply-To: "cf-dev@..." <cf-dev@...>
Date: Friday, 1. May 2020 at 01:16
To: Dr Nic Williams <drnicwilliams@...>
Cc: CF Developers Mailing List <cf-dev@...>, cf-extensions-pmc <cf-extensions-pmc@...>
Subject: Re: [cf-dev] Stepping down as CF Extension PMC lead and a small TBT present

 

Hi Dr. Max,

 

Your presence is invaluable to our community.  I can only name a few hats you wore over the years, but all the roles you've taken on helped us immensely in shaping our community! 

  • hosting Community Call 
  • leading the Extensions-PMC 
  • supporting us immensely for Hackathons at Summit
  • advocating Cloud Foundry technology in our community and within the broader open source community 
  • representing our community everywhere
  • being a true Cloud Foundry Ambassador!
  • capturing all the amazing memories and sharing the pictures with us
  • ...and so many more.

 

Thank you so much for all your contributions and efforts.  We genuinely and sincerely thank you.

 

 

-- Swarna Podila (she/her)

Senior

 Director

, Community

 | Cloud Foundry Foundation

 

You can read more about pronouns here, or please ask if you'd like to find out more.

 

 

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:47 PM Dr Nic Williams <drnicwilliams@...> wrote:

Thanks Dr Max for everything you’ve done — and all the photos!

 

Dr Nic

 

On Fri, 1 May 2020 at 8:33 am, Michael Maximilien <maxim@...> wrote:






Hi, all,


After four years (almost) at the helm of CF Extensions, I am announcing that I am stepping down as the lead. I believe the time is ripe as CF is transitioning to new waters and since I am less involved with the projects these days, it's time for someone else to take over and steer us to greener pastures.


I took on the CF Extensions lead role when none existed at the end of 2016. I remember, like yesterday, when Sam asked me to start an Extensions PMC for Cloud Foundry during our summit in Frankfurt. Since then, we have added close to 20 extensions projects with many having graduated and a few fading away. Exactly what we envisioned, so for that I am happy and thankful to your participation and contributions.


Overall, I feel positive and hopeful that better days are ahead for CF and this community. You have a vibrant group of contributors and excellent committed leadership in the Cloud Foundry Foundation. I will miss the kindness, brersity, and excellence that this community has always strived to achieve and uphold.


That said, I will not be far away. I am still involved in OSS for IBM and will be happy to help in any way I can, when you need me. Swarna will be sending a separate email to look for volunteers and elect a leader.


-----
With that, my little TBT present to you are the following curated photographs I have taken of you during our time together at the many CF Summits, CF days, and events all across the world.


From some of the first CF Summit NA: Santa Clara in
2015-16-17; to CF Summit Asia in Shanghai 2016; to CF Days: Pune, India 2016, Misk, Belarus 2016, London 2018, NY 2018, and Copenhagen 2018; to CF Summit Europe: Frankfurt 2016, Basel 2017-2018, Den Haag 2019; and most recently CF Summit NA: Boston 2018 and Philadelphia 2019.


You've often seen me with a camera in hand shooting away. So here's the main reason, to allow us to remember, to look back, and to reminisce a bit on the great memories, fun times, and lasting friendships we have forged in this community. With that, here are two curated sets of what I believe are my most memorable and best 150 photographs of Cloud Foundry community events and members. Hope you like:


50 B&amp;W:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JUHVSRCKc9SrvuZD8
100 Color:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mAarRq8QvAWm8Mki6


PS: While I took care to select the best photos, I can fully understand if there is a photo of you, or that you are in a photo, that you do not like or rather I not share. Please let me know and I will remove ASAP.
Also, to respect the privacy of all, I ask you to get permissions before re-sharing, of course, if the photograph includes someone other than yourself. In my experience most people agree, so just ask.

--

Dr Nic Williams

Stark & Wayne LLC

+61 437 276 076

twitter @drnic

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cf-extensions-pmc+unsubscribe@....
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Re: Is anyone working on a CF CRD & Controller?

Daniel Jones
 

Ta! I've been on full-time billable work with customers all week, but I'll take a look now.

Regards,
Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44 (0)79 8000 9153
EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists


On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 at 18:17, Zach Robinson <zrobinson@...> wrote:
Hey Daniel,

Wanted to follow up. There's now a doc to start building out our understanding of CRDs here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mIMH4uEtIJkZjVa5mKWJoIAIeVyM4gVqO-Cx5JtYgtE/edit?usp=sharing

Shared with the mailing list under topic "Exploring CRDs in CF".  Would love to get your thoughts and feedback.

-Zach

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:09 PM Zach Robinson <zrobinson@...> wrote:
Zach, am I correct in thinking that the current approach is the have clients interact with CloudController, have CloudController persist to CCDB as per usual, and then CloudController post stuff to CRDs in the Kube API?

Yes, this is the current approach for the CRDs that Cloud Controller interacts with now. There are also reconciliation loops that we run for these resources analogous to how we've always reconciled CCDB state with Diego.

I think this method has developed organically from our goal of preserving in-place workflows via having the same API surface, allowing cli to function without changes, while trying to consume existing functionality in k8s. I think the longer term goal here is to review that usage and be more intentional about how we expect CRDs to fit into the system as a whole.

-Zach

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:10 AM Daniel Jones <daniel.jones@...> wrote:
Thanks for that folks - especially for such a long and detailed response, Zach. Much appreciated.

It's great that folks are already thinking about this.

Zach, am I correct in thinking that the current approach is the have clients interact with CloudController, have CloudController persist to CCDB as per usual, and then CloudController post stuff to CRDs in the Kube API?

I'd kinda imagined things going the other way around, introducing the CRDs as a new user interface, and have the controllers do the diff and then post/put to CloudController. The intention here would be saving Kubes-native folks (and CI servers!) from having to deal with the imperative interface. I was working on the assumption that all CF concepts would be exposed as CRDs.

From a CAPI perspective, I've been thinking more about representing apps and push as CRDs, and I believe the Eirini team has some thoughts in this area as well.

I'd always dodged this area in cf-converger as it was the most complicated, and the biggest break from the current CF experience :)

For example when we look at orgs/spaces - we have to wonder if those are even resources we want to represent as CRDs, when k8s already has a namespace construct.

I can imagine that the logical concept of orgs may one day map onto distinct Kubernetes namespaces, but I hadn't imagined that orgs would in any way disappear, or not be configurable via the Kubernetes approach.

It'd be great to hear what others think on all of this.

Thanks again for sharing, Keshav and Zach.

Regards,
Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44 (0)79 8000 9153
EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists


On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 23:45, Zach Robinson <zrobinson@...> wrote:
Hey Daniel,

Thanks for starting a convo. The timing couldn't be better. I can share some of the thinking going on in both CAPI and VMware land. 

But first and foremost I want to address the question: "Is there any point in the community working on such a solution, or are one of the bigger companies secretly working on something that would supersede any community effort?" - yes, yes, a thousand times yes to community collaboration!

The topic of CRDs is kind of huge. It's really great to hear your focus is on things like orgs/spaces. From a CAPI perspective, I've been thinking more about representing apps and push as CRDs, and I believe the Eirini team has some thoughts in this area as well. There's a lot of ground to cover clearly.

In terms of things that are in flight now.
  • Keshav kindly shared that networking is looking to provide Route CRDs.
  • Networking is also exploring providing Security Groups as CRDs.
  • CAPI is integrating kpack into CF to provide buildpack staging. This is done by generating kpack CRDs.
Currently these CRDs are being created and owned by the Cloud Controller, which enables us to present backward compatible APIs to our CLI and UI like stratos, while moving the implementation down into controllers fronted by CRDs.  There's an obvious potential to interact with k8s directly in the future, but the current use case is to be used by CC. Except for kpack which is an excellent stand alone tool already :).  

These efforts are great and are allowing us to begin a path towards using existing k8s tooling and projects to provide Cloud Foundry outcomes, but obviously there's a lot further to go.

From VMware's side, over the last couple weeks, there has been an effort to explore what it might look like to use CRDs entirely as a source of truth for *all* CF data, in place of a SQL database, as a learning exercise, not necessarily a desired outcome. The primary goal of that effort was to start the convo that we're having now, and to be able to contribute in a meaningful way.  Note there are no VMware-based plans to dump a fully fledged proposal. We need to start from a premise as a community of understanding how/why/and which resources are valuable as CRDs.

For example when we look at orgs/spaces - we have to wonder if those are even resources we want to represent as CRDs, when k8s already has a namespace construct.

I think we'll need to start some dedicated working document to collaborate in. I had planned on facilitating that after some of the investigation that VMware has wraps up, but I don't think that's a reason to hold off if you or somebody else in the community has thoughts they want to start getting down. CAPI and other teams can contribute to an existing doc if that makes sense. Any other thoughts you'd prefer for next steps?

Looking forward to a continued conversation.

-Zach


On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:56 AM Keshav Sharma <ksharma@...> wrote:
Hi Daniel, 
The CF-K8s Networking team is currently working on a solution using Route CRDto introduce a “Route” custom resource and have Cloud Controller make/update these directly as part of the `cf map-route` and `cf unmap-route` workflows. Happy to discuss this further in our Cloud-Foundry Slack- #networking group. Regards, Keshav Sharma Product Manager | CF-K8s-Networking VMware

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 3:01 AM Daniel Jones <daniel.jones@...> wrote:
Hi all,

In the spirit of community, I'm going to ask this question outright and in the open - is anyone (*looks at VMware MAPBU*) working on a CRD and accompanying controller for CF on Kubernetes?

Anyone with a non-trivial amount of Cloud Foundry experience knows that whilst the imperative interface of the CF CLI is great for exploratory work, it's far from ideal for production environments. I make a point of telling folks in CF training courses that no human should be using the CLI in production, other than for debugging.

A declarative interface for CF has always been desirable, and its omission is going to become even more stark once running CF on Kubernetes is the norm. We've had cf-mgmt which is close, but involves more steps than is ideal.

It'd be great to have one or more CRDs that represent the state of a Cloud Foundry, and accompanying controllers that converge upon that state. When I talk about state, I mean things like orgs, spaces, service broker registrations, service instances, roles and so on.

Four years ago I started work on a project called cf-converger to diff and converge a Cloud Foundry instance on a state declared in YAML. I got distracted with running a business and doing billable work, so whilst the concept was proven, it never really got to a state of usefulness. Plus, I seemed to spend half my coding time just writing excessively-verbose chained method calls on the official Java CF client :D 

I see such a solution as an inevitability in the Kubernetes-based future. Whilst I'm personally tempted to resurrect the project, it makes very little sense for a company like EngineerBetter to divert resources from billable work to a project that is needed, but can't be monetised.

Are any of the big players working on something similar? Is it something we should all be thinking and talking about? Is there any point in the community working on such a solution, or are one of the bigger companies secretly working on something that would supersede any community effort?

Regards,
Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44 (0)79 8000 9153
EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists


Re: Stepping down as CF Extension PMC lead and a small TBT present

Krannich, Bernd
 

Hi Dr. Max,

 

Sad to see you stepping down as Extensions PMC lead. Thank you very much for all you have done for the CF community!

 

I’m hopeful that one day in the (hopefully not too distant) future we’ll again bump into each other at one of the great open source conferences somewhere in the world so that we can hang out together.

 

All the best,

Bernd

 

Bernd Krannich

SAP Cloud Platform

SAP SE

Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany

 

bernd.krannich@...

 

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From: <cf-dev@...> on behalf of Swarna Podila <spodila@...>
Reply-To: "cf-dev@..." <cf-dev@...>
Date: Friday, 1. May 2020 at 01:16
To: Dr Nic Williams <drnicwilliams@...>
Cc: CF Developers Mailing List <cf-dev@...>, cf-extensions-pmc <cf-extensions-pmc@...>
Subject: Re: [cf-dev] Stepping down as CF Extension PMC lead and a small TBT present

 

Hi Dr. Max,

 

Your presence is invaluable to our community.  I can only name a few hats you wore over the years, but all the roles you've taken on helped us immensely in shaping our community! 

  • hosting Community Call 
  • leading the Extensions-PMC 
  • supporting us immensely for Hackathons at Summit
  • advocating Cloud Foundry technology in our community and within the broader open source community 
  • representing our community everywhere
  • being a true Cloud Foundry Ambassador!
  • capturing all the amazing memories and sharing the pictures with us
  • ...and so many more.

 

Thank you so much for all your contributions and efforts.  We genuinely and sincerely thank you.

 

 

-- Swarna Podila (she/her)

Senior

 Director

, Community

 | Cloud Foundry Foundation

 

You can read more about pronouns here, or please ask if you'd like to find out more.

 

 

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:47 PM Dr Nic Williams <drnicwilliams@...> wrote:

Thanks Dr Max for everything you’ve done — and all the photos!

 

Dr Nic

 

On Fri, 1 May 2020 at 8:33 am, Michael Maximilien <maxim@...> wrote:






Hi, all,


After four years (almost) at the helm of CF Extensions, I am announcing that I am stepping down as the lead. I believe the time is ripe as CF is transitioning to new waters and since I am less involved with the projects these days, it's time for someone else to take over and steer us to greener pastures.


I took on the CF Extensions lead role when none existed at the end of 2016. I remember, like yesterday, when Sam asked me to start an Extensions PMC for Cloud Foundry during our summit in Frankfurt. Since then, we have added close to 20 extensions projects with many having graduated and a few fading away. Exactly what we envisioned, so for that I am happy and thankful to your participation and contributions.


Overall, I feel positive and hopeful that better days are ahead for CF and this community. You have a vibrant group of contributors and excellent committed leadership in the Cloud Foundry Foundation. I will miss the kindness, brersity, and excellence that this community has always strived to achieve and uphold.


That said, I will not be far away. I am still involved in OSS for IBM and will be happy to help in any way I can, when you need me. Swarna will be sending a separate email to look for volunteers and elect a leader.


-----
With that, my little TBT present to you are the following curated photographs I have taken of you during our time together at the many CF Summits, CF days, and events all across the world.


From some of the first CF Summit NA: Santa Clara in
2015-16-17; to CF Summit Asia in Shanghai 2016; to CF Days: Pune, India 2016, Misk, Belarus 2016, London 2018, NY 2018, and Copenhagen 2018; to CF Summit Europe: Frankfurt 2016, Basel 2017-2018, Den Haag 2019; and most recently CF Summit NA: Boston 2018 and Philadelphia 2019.


You've often seen me with a camera in hand shooting away. So here's the main reason, to allow us to remember, to look back, and to reminisce a bit on the great memories, fun times, and lasting friendships we have forged in this community. With that, here are two curated sets of what I believe are my most memorable and best 150 photographs of Cloud Foundry community events and members. Hope you like:


50 B&amp;W:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JUHVSRCKc9SrvuZD8
100 Color:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mAarRq8QvAWm8Mki6


PS: While I took care to select the best photos, I can fully understand if there is a photo of you, or that you are in a photo, that you do not like or rather I not share. Please let me know and I will remove ASAP.
Also, to respect the privacy of all, I ask you to get permissions before re-sharing, of course, if the photograph includes someone other than yourself. In my experience most people agree, so just ask.

--

Dr Nic Williams

Stark & Wayne LLC

+61 437 276 076

twitter @drnic

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cf-extensions-pmc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cf-extensions-pmc+unsubscribe@....
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/cloudfoundry.org/d/msgid/cf-extensions-pmc/CAM-_pPbYBdugvoaq4achwtKb_Pbb2_X0wFjy6Hsm8rtVfb9Gjg%40mail.gmail.com.


Seeking Nominations: Cloud Foundry Extensions PMC

Swarna Podila
 

Hi All,
You may have seen Dr. Max's note earlier.  After leading Extensions PMC for almost four years, he would like to step down and make space for new folks to take on the role. 

Please send in your nominations for a new lead for Cloud Foundry Extensions PMC by the end of day next Friday, May 8, 2020. 

-- Swarna Podila (she/her)
Senior
 Director
, Community
 | Cloud Foundry Foundation

You can read more about pronouns here, or please ask if you'd like to find out more.


Re: Stepping down as CF Extension PMC lead and a small TBT present

Swarna Podila
 

Hi Dr. Max,

Your presence is invaluable to our community.  I can only name a few hats you wore over the years, but all the roles you've taken on helped us immensely in shaping our community! 
  • hosting Community Call 
  • leading the Extensions-PMC 
  • supporting us immensely for Hackathons at Summit
  • advocating Cloud Foundry technology in our community and within the broader open source community 
  • representing our community everywhere
  • being a true Cloud Foundry Ambassador!
  • capturing all the amazing memories and sharing the pictures with us
  • ...and so many more.

Thank you so much for all your contributions and efforts.  We genuinely and sincerely thank you.


-- Swarna Podila (she/her)
Senior
 Director
, Community
 | Cloud Foundry Foundation

You can read more about pronouns here, or please ask if you'd like to find out more.


On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:47 PM Dr Nic Williams <drnicwilliams@...> wrote:
Thanks Dr Max for everything you’ve done — and all the photos!

Dr Nic

On Fri, 1 May 2020 at 8:33 am, Michael Maximilien <maxim@...> wrote:






Hi, all,


After four years (almost) at the helm of CF Extensions, I am announcing that I am stepping down as the lead. I believe the time is ripe as CF is transitioning to new waters and since I am less involved with the projects these days, it's time for someone else to take over and steer us to greener pastures.


I took on the CF Extensions lead role when none existed at the end of 2016. I remember, like yesterday, when Sam asked me to start an Extensions PMC for Cloud Foundry during our summit in Frankfurt. Since then, we have added close to 20 extensions projects with many having graduated and a few fading away. Exactly what we envisioned, so for that I am happy and thankful to your participation and contributions.


Overall, I feel positive and hopeful that better days are ahead for CF and this community. You have a vibrant group of contributors and excellent committed leadership in the Cloud Foundry Foundation. I will miss the kindness, brersity, and excellence that this community has always strived to achieve and uphold.


That said, I will not be far away. I am still involved in OSS for IBM and will be happy to help in any way I can, when you need me. Swarna will be sending a separate email to look for volunteers and elect a leader.


-----
With that, my little TBT present to you are the following curated photographs I have taken of you during our time together at the many CF Summits, CF days, and events all across the world.


From some of the first CF Summit NA: Santa Clara in
2015-16-17; to CF Summit Asia in Shanghai 2016; to CF Days: Pune, India 2016, Misk, Belarus 2016, London 2018, NY 2018, and Copenhagen 2018; to CF Summit Europe: Frankfurt 2016, Basel 2017-2018, Den Haag 2019; and most recently CF Summit NA: Boston 2018 and Philadelphia 2019.


You've often seen me with a camera in hand shooting away. So here's the main reason, to allow us to remember, to look back, and to reminisce a bit on the great memories, fun times, and lasting friendships we have forged in this community. With that, here are two curated sets of what I believe are my most memorable and best 150 photographs of Cloud Foundry community events and members. Hope you like:


50 B&amp;W:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JUHVSRCKc9SrvuZD8
100 Color:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mAarRq8QvAWm8Mki6


PS: While I took care to select the best photos, I can fully understand if there is a photo of you, or that you are in a photo, that you do not like or rather I not share. Please let me know and I will remove ASAP.
Also, to respect the privacy of all, I ask you to get permissions before re-sharing, of course, if the photograph includes someone other than yourself. In my experience most people agree, so just ask.


--
Dr Nic Williams
Stark & Wayne LLC
+61 437 276 076
twitter @drnic

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cf-extensions-pmc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cf-extensions-pmc+unsubscribe@....
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/cloudfoundry.org/d/msgid/cf-extensions-pmc/CAM-_pPbYBdugvoaq4achwtKb_Pbb2_X0wFjy6Hsm8rtVfb9Gjg%40mail.gmail.com.


Re: Stepping down as CF Extension PMC lead and a small TBT present

Jeff Hobbs <jeff.hobbs@...>
 

Thanks Dr. Max for the years steering the extensions PMC to greener pastures!

On Apr 30, 2020, at 3:33 PM, Michael Maximilien <maxim@...> wrote:

Hi, all,


After four years (almost) at the helm of CF Extensions, I am announcing that I am stepping down as the lead. I believe the time is ripe as CF is transitioning to new waters and since I am less involved with the projects these days, it's time for someone else to take over and steer us to greener pastures.


I took on the CF Extensions lead role when none existed at the end of 2016. I remember, like yesterday, when Sam asked me to start an Extensions PMC for Cloud Foundry during our summit in Frankfurt. Since then, we have added close to 20 extensions projects with many having graduated and a few fading away. Exactly what we envisioned, so for that I am happy and thankful to your participation and contributions.


Overall, I feel positive and hopeful that better days are ahead for CF and this community. You have a vibrant group of contributors and excellent committed leadership in the Cloud Foundry Foundation. I will miss the kindness, brersity, and excellence that this community has always strived to achieve and uphold.


That said, I will not be far away. I am still involved in OSS for IBM and will be happy to help in any way I can, when you need me. Swarna will be sending a separate email to look for volunteers and elect a leader.


-----
With that, my little TBT present to you are the following curated photographs I have taken of you during our time together at the many CF Summits, CF days, and events all across the world.


From some of the first CF Summit NA: Santa Clara in
2015-16-17; to CF Summit Asia in Shanghai 2016; to CF Days: Pune, India 2016, Misk, Belarus 2016, London 2018, NY 2018, and Copenhagen 2018; to CF Summit Europe: Frankfurt 2016, Basel 2017-2018, Den Haag 2019; and most recently CF Summit NA: Boston 2018 and Philadelphia 2019.


You've often seen me with a camera in hand shooting away. So here's the main reason, to allow us to remember, to look back, and to reminisce a bit on the great memories, fun times, and lasting friendships we have forged in this community. With that, here are two curated sets of what I believe are my most memorable and best 150 photographs of Cloud Foundry community events and members. Hope you like:


50 B&W:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JUHVSRCKc9SrvuZD8
100 Color:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mAarRq8QvAWm8Mki6


PS: While I took care to select the best photos, I can fully understand if there is a photo of you, or that you are in a photo, that you do not like or rather I not share. Please let me know and I will remove ASAP.
Also, to respect the privacy of all, I ask you to get permissions before re-sharing, of course, if the photograph includes someone other than yourself. In my experience most people agree, so just ask.


Re: Stepping down as CF Extension PMC lead and a small TBT present

Dr Nic Williams <drnicwilliams@...>
 

Thanks Dr Max for everything you’ve done — and all the photos!

Dr Nic

On Fri, 1 May 2020 at 8:33 am, Michael Maximilien <maxim@...> wrote:






Hi, all,


After four years (almost) at the helm of CF Extensions, I am announcing that I am stepping down as the lead. I believe the time is ripe as CF is transitioning to new waters and since I am less involved with the projects these days, it's time for someone else to take over and steer us to greener pastures.


I took on the CF Extensions lead role when none existed at the end of 2016. I remember, like yesterday, when Sam asked me to start an Extensions PMC for Cloud Foundry during our summit in Frankfurt. Since then, we have added close to 20 extensions projects with many having graduated and a few fading away. Exactly what we envisioned, so for that I am happy and thankful to your participation and contributions.


Overall, I feel positive and hopeful that better days are ahead for CF and this community. You have a vibrant group of contributors and excellent committed leadership in the Cloud Foundry Foundation. I will miss the kindness, brersity, and excellence that this community has always strived to achieve and uphold.


That said, I will not be far away. I am still involved in OSS for IBM and will be happy to help in any way I can, when you need me. Swarna will be sending a separate email to look for volunteers and elect a leader.


-----
With that, my little TBT present to you are the following curated photographs I have taken of you during our time together at the many CF Summits, CF days, and events all across the world.


From some of the first CF Summit NA: Santa Clara in
2015-16-17; to CF Summit Asia in Shanghai 2016; to CF Days: Pune, India 2016, Misk, Belarus 2016, London 2018, NY 2018, and Copenhagen 2018; to CF Summit Europe: Frankfurt 2016, Basel 2017-2018, Den Haag 2019; and most recently CF Summit NA: Boston 2018 and Philadelphia 2019.


You've often seen me with a camera in hand shooting away. So here's the main reason, to allow us to remember, to look back, and to reminisce a bit on the great memories, fun times, and lasting friendships we have forged in this community. With that, here are two curated sets of what I believe are my most memorable and best 150 photographs of Cloud Foundry community events and members. Hope you like:


50 B&amp;W:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JUHVSRCKc9SrvuZD8
100 Color:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mAarRq8QvAWm8Mki6


PS: While I took care to select the best photos, I can fully understand if there is a photo of you, or that you are in a photo, that you do not like or rather I not share. Please let me know and I will remove ASAP.
Also, to respect the privacy of all, I ask you to get permissions before re-sharing, of course, if the photograph includes someone other than yourself. In my experience most people agree, so just ask.


--
Dr Nic Williams
Stark & Wayne LLC
+61 437 276 076
twitter @drnic


Stepping down as CF Extension PMC lead and a small TBT present

Michael Maximilien
 






Hi, all,


After four years (almost) at the helm of CF Extensions, I am announcing that I am stepping down as the lead. I believe the time is ripe as CF is transitioning to new waters and since I am less involved with the projects these days, it's time for someone else to take over and steer us to greener pastures.


I took on the CF Extensions lead role when none existed at the end of 2016. I remember, like yesterday, when Sam asked me to start an Extensions PMC for Cloud Foundry during our summit in Frankfurt. Since then, we have added close to 20 extensions projects with many having graduated and a few fading away. Exactly what we envisioned, so for that I am happy and thankful to your participation and contributions.


Overall, I feel positive and hopeful that better days are ahead for CF and this community. You have a vibrant group of contributors and excellent committed leadership in the Cloud Foundry Foundation. I will miss the kindness, brersity, and excellence that this community has always strived to achieve and uphold.


That said, I will not be far away. I am still involved in OSS for IBM and will be happy to help in any way I can, when you need me. Swarna will be sending a separate email to look for volunteers and elect a leader.


-----
With that, my little TBT present to you are the following curated photographs I have taken of you during our time together at the many CF Summits, CF days, and events all across the world.


From some of the first CF Summit NA: Santa Clara in
2015-16-17; to CF Summit Asia in Shanghai 2016; to CF Days: Pune, India 2016, Misk, Belarus 2016, London 2018, NY 2018, and Copenhagen 2018; to CF Summit Europe: Frankfurt 2016, Basel 2017-2018, Den Haag 2019; and most recently CF Summit NA: Boston 2018 and Philadelphia 2019.


You've often seen me with a camera in hand shooting away. So here's the main reason, to allow us to remember, to look back, and to reminisce a bit on the great memories, fun times, and lasting friendships we have forged in this community. With that, here are two curated sets of what I believe are my most memorable and best 150 photographs of Cloud Foundry community events and members. Hope you like:


50 B&amp;W:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JUHVSRCKc9SrvuZD8
100 Color:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mAarRq8QvAWm8Mki6


PS: While I took care to select the best photos, I can fully understand if there is a photo of you, or that you are in a photo, that you do not like or rather I not share. Please let me know and I will remove ASAP.
Also, to respect the privacy of all, I ask you to get permissions before re-sharing, of course, if the photograph includes someone other than yourself. In my experience most people agree, so just ask.



Removing bits-service from cf-deployment

James Pollard <jpollard@...>
 

Hi all,

As many of you may know, the discontinuation of bits-service was announced back in July of 2019.

We just wanted to give you all a heads up that we'll be removing the bits-service from cf-deployment in the upcoming v13 major release. After this removal, users who want to continue using bits-service will be able to do so by using the bits-service ops files from cf-d v12. (here's a link.)

⏰ If the removal of bits-service in cf-d v13 is likely to cause major headaches for you, please reach out to us ASAP❗️

Best,
release integration


FYI: Welcome “CF Backup & Restore” project to CF-Extensions

Michael Maximilien
 

Hi, all,

The CF Extensions PMC is glad to announce the acceptance of the “CF Backup &amp; Restore” plugin as the newest extension to Cloud Foundry.

With CF Backup &amp; Restore, users of Cloud Foundry can easily backup and restore their orgs, spaces, applications, and service bindings. The restoration can be into the same foundry or a different one.

The CF Backup &amp; Restore team has transitioned the project to the cf-incubator organization:

https://github.com/cloudfoundry-incubator/cf-plugin-backup

We invite you to engage with the team with questions in their Slack channel: #cf-backup-restore on the CloudFoundry slack.

In behalf of the project leaders:

Vlad Iovanov (SUSE)
Enrique Encalada (IBM)

--
dr.max Sent from my iPhone http://maximilien.org


Re: Announcing Cloud Foundry CLI v7 Release Plan

Stefan Mayr
 

Hi Josh

Am 27.04.2020 um 18:13 schrieb Josh Collins:
Dear Cloud Foundry Community,


We are nearing the completion of the v7 CF CLI and we’re excited to
announce that we’ll be cutting our GA release soon!
This is fantastic news. Our developers are waiting for some of the
experimental v3-commands to be replaced with stable CLI v7 commands.

The exact target date for the launch hasn’t been finalized but because
transitioning from v6 to v7 will require coordination and planning we’re
sending an initial heads up. We'll send follow ups to this communication
once the launch date and associated details become concrete.

 

In case you haven’t been following the development of the v7 CLI
closely, here’s three of many new capabilities that will become
available when v7 GAs:

*

Rolling Deploys
<https://docs.cloudfoundry.org/devguide/deploy-apps/rolling-deploy.html>using
the "--strategy" flag for "cf push" and other commands

*

Metadata
<https://docs.cloudfoundry.org/adminguide/metadata.html>apply labels
and annotations to apps, spaces, organizations, and other resources

*

Sidecar Processes
<https://docs.cloudfoundry.org/devguide/sidecars.html>for
applications using application manifests

...
How about manifest files? Do we have to expect any manifest syntax or
naming changes? Will some of the new CLI features also be available in
the manifest?

Thanks,

Stefan


Re: Is anyone working on a CF CRD & Controller?

Zach Robinson
 

Hey Daniel,

Wanted to follow up. There's now a doc to start building out our understanding of CRDs here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mIMH4uEtIJkZjVa5mKWJoIAIeVyM4gVqO-Cx5JtYgtE/edit?usp=sharing

Shared with the mailing list under topic "Exploring CRDs in CF".  Would love to get your thoughts and feedback.

-Zach

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:09 PM Zach Robinson <zrobinson@...> wrote:
Zach, am I correct in thinking that the current approach is the have clients interact with CloudController, have CloudController persist to CCDB as per usual, and then CloudController post stuff to CRDs in the Kube API?

Yes, this is the current approach for the CRDs that Cloud Controller interacts with now. There are also reconciliation loops that we run for these resources analogous to how we've always reconciled CCDB state with Diego.

I think this method has developed organically from our goal of preserving in-place workflows via having the same API surface, allowing cli to function without changes, while trying to consume existing functionality in k8s. I think the longer term goal here is to review that usage and be more intentional about how we expect CRDs to fit into the system as a whole.

-Zach

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:10 AM Daniel Jones <daniel.jones@...> wrote:
Thanks for that folks - especially for such a long and detailed response, Zach. Much appreciated.

It's great that folks are already thinking about this.

Zach, am I correct in thinking that the current approach is the have clients interact with CloudController, have CloudController persist to CCDB as per usual, and then CloudController post stuff to CRDs in the Kube API?

I'd kinda imagined things going the other way around, introducing the CRDs as a new user interface, and have the controllers do the diff and then post/put to CloudController. The intention here would be saving Kubes-native folks (and CI servers!) from having to deal with the imperative interface. I was working on the assumption that all CF concepts would be exposed as CRDs.

From a CAPI perspective, I've been thinking more about representing apps and push as CRDs, and I believe the Eirini team has some thoughts in this area as well.

I'd always dodged this area in cf-converger as it was the most complicated, and the biggest break from the current CF experience :)

For example when we look at orgs/spaces - we have to wonder if those are even resources we want to represent as CRDs, when k8s already has a namespace construct.

I can imagine that the logical concept of orgs may one day map onto distinct Kubernetes namespaces, but I hadn't imagined that orgs would in any way disappear, or not be configurable via the Kubernetes approach.

It'd be great to hear what others think on all of this.

Thanks again for sharing, Keshav and Zach.

Regards,
Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44 (0)79 8000 9153
EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists


On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 23:45, Zach Robinson <zrobinson@...> wrote:
Hey Daniel,

Thanks for starting a convo. The timing couldn't be better. I can share some of the thinking going on in both CAPI and VMware land. 

But first and foremost I want to address the question: "Is there any point in the community working on such a solution, or are one of the bigger companies secretly working on something that would supersede any community effort?" - yes, yes, a thousand times yes to community collaboration!

The topic of CRDs is kind of huge. It's really great to hear your focus is on things like orgs/spaces. From a CAPI perspective, I've been thinking more about representing apps and push as CRDs, and I believe the Eirini team has some thoughts in this area as well. There's a lot of ground to cover clearly.

In terms of things that are in flight now.
  • Keshav kindly shared that networking is looking to provide Route CRDs.
  • Networking is also exploring providing Security Groups as CRDs.
  • CAPI is integrating kpack into CF to provide buildpack staging. This is done by generating kpack CRDs.
Currently these CRDs are being created and owned by the Cloud Controller, which enables us to present backward compatible APIs to our CLI and UI like stratos, while moving the implementation down into controllers fronted by CRDs.  There's an obvious potential to interact with k8s directly in the future, but the current use case is to be used by CC. Except for kpack which is an excellent stand alone tool already :).  

These efforts are great and are allowing us to begin a path towards using existing k8s tooling and projects to provide Cloud Foundry outcomes, but obviously there's a lot further to go.

From VMware's side, over the last couple weeks, there has been an effort to explore what it might look like to use CRDs entirely as a source of truth for *all* CF data, in place of a SQL database, as a learning exercise, not necessarily a desired outcome. The primary goal of that effort was to start the convo that we're having now, and to be able to contribute in a meaningful way.  Note there are no VMware-based plans to dump a fully fledged proposal. We need to start from a premise as a community of understanding how/why/and which resources are valuable as CRDs.

For example when we look at orgs/spaces - we have to wonder if those are even resources we want to represent as CRDs, when k8s already has a namespace construct.

I think we'll need to start some dedicated working document to collaborate in. I had planned on facilitating that after some of the investigation that VMware has wraps up, but I don't think that's a reason to hold off if you or somebody else in the community has thoughts they want to start getting down. CAPI and other teams can contribute to an existing doc if that makes sense. Any other thoughts you'd prefer for next steps?

Looking forward to a continued conversation.

-Zach


On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:56 AM Keshav Sharma <ksharma@...> wrote:
Hi Daniel, 
The CF-K8s Networking team is currently working on a solution using Route CRDto introduce a “Route” custom resource and have Cloud Controller make/update these directly as part of the `cf map-route` and `cf unmap-route` workflows. Happy to discuss this further in our Cloud-Foundry Slack- #networking group. Regards, Keshav Sharma Product Manager | CF-K8s-Networking VMware

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 3:01 AM Daniel Jones <daniel.jones@...> wrote:
Hi all,

In the spirit of community, I'm going to ask this question outright and in the open - is anyone (*looks at VMware MAPBU*) working on a CRD and accompanying controller for CF on Kubernetes?

Anyone with a non-trivial amount of Cloud Foundry experience knows that whilst the imperative interface of the CF CLI is great for exploratory work, it's far from ideal for production environments. I make a point of telling folks in CF training courses that no human should be using the CLI in production, other than for debugging.

A declarative interface for CF has always been desirable, and its omission is going to become even more stark once running CF on Kubernetes is the norm. We've had cf-mgmt which is close, but involves more steps than is ideal.

It'd be great to have one or more CRDs that represent the state of a Cloud Foundry, and accompanying controllers that converge upon that state. When I talk about state, I mean things like orgs, spaces, service broker registrations, service instances, roles and so on.

Four years ago I started work on a project called cf-converger to diff and converge a Cloud Foundry instance on a state declared in YAML. I got distracted with running a business and doing billable work, so whilst the concept was proven, it never really got to a state of usefulness. Plus, I seemed to spend half my coding time just writing excessively-verbose chained method calls on the official Java CF client :D 

I see such a solution as an inevitability in the Kubernetes-based future. Whilst I'm personally tempted to resurrect the project, it makes very little sense for a company like EngineerBetter to divert resources from billable work to a project that is needed, but can't be monetised.

Are any of the big players working on something similar? Is it something we should all be thinking and talking about? Is there any point in the community working on such a solution, or are one of the bigger companies secretly working on something that would supersede any community effort?

Regards,
Daniel 'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44 (0)79 8000 9153
EngineerBetter Ltd - More than cloud platform specialists


Exploring CRDs in CF

Zach Robinson
 

Hey all,

As we move towards a kubernetes-based Cloud Foundry, the inclusion of CRDs into CF has been a recurring topic. At this point we already see CRDs being incorporated into CF in a number of ways, as well as questions about them such as a thread on this list titled "Is anyone working on a CF CRD & Controller?".  

We would like to use this space to start gathering an understanding of how folks are using CRDs, the reasons folks are using CRDs, and what CRDs folks would like to see in the future. 

This will help us build a better understanding as a community towards the outcomes of
  • Include CRDs in CF with well-defined architectural patterns
  • Understand how CRDs should be exposed as a user interface

This document has been created to help house the discussion asynchronously. It has been built with the understanding of cf contributors from a couple of teams, but we need everybody's help to flesh out the full picture.

Looking forward to discussion


Re: Cloud Foundry content migration document

Vlad Iovanov
 

Hi @Krannich, Bernd

 

We’ve just moved a new project in the Foundation, Extensions PMC: https://github.com/cloudfoundry-incubator/cf-plugin-backup

Its purpose is to do what you describe, migrate foundries.

 

Right now, it’s a CLI plugin that works exclusively with the API (by design).

It has a few missing features, but with help from our CAPI friends, I think we could close the gap.

 

The team is currently formed of SUSE and IBM – more help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Vlad

 

From: Krannich, Bernd
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 2:56 PM
To: cf-dev@...
Subject: [cf-dev] Cloud Foundry content migration document

 

Hello all,

 

As a follow-up of a discussion in our Cloud Foundry for Kubernetes Special Interest Group meeting [1], I took an action to write up my thoughts around the topic of Cloud Foundry content migration (which is not only relevant in the context of CF@K8s).

 

Here is my initial write-up:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R54vlw16kOxiSQpcMF0fJUuE-cBsqxYAU-8z87CIHyc/edit?usp=sharing

 

More than happy to receive feedback, shape the topic in the CF community, and ideally in a follow-up step, gather a group of companies/individuals that take the topic further in Cloud Foundry open source.

 

Thanks,

Bernd

 

[1] https://www.cloudfoundry.org/community-calendar/ à SIG Meeting: Cloud Foundry for Kubernetes

 

Bernd Krannich

SAP Cloud Platform

SAP SE

Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany

 

bernd.krannich@...

 

Pflichtangaben/Mandatory Disclosure Statement: www.sap.com/impressum

 

Diese E-Mail kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, ist Ihnen eine Kenntnisnahme des Inhalts, eine Vervielfältigung oder Weitergabe der E-Mail ausdrücklich untersagt. Bitte benachrichtigen Sie uns und vernichten Sie die empfangene E-Mail. Vielen Dank.

 

This e-mail may contain trade secrets or privileged, undisclosed, or otherwise confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any review, copying, or distribution of it is strictly prohibited. Please inform us immediately and destroy the original transmittal. Thank you for your cooperation.

 


Cloud Foundry content migration document

Krannich, Bernd
 

Hello all,

 

As a follow-up of a discussion in our Cloud Foundry for Kubernetes Special Interest Group meeting [1], I took an action to write up my thoughts around the topic of Cloud Foundry content migration (which is not only relevant in the context of CF@K8s).

 

Here is my initial write-up:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R54vlw16kOxiSQpcMF0fJUuE-cBsqxYAU-8z87CIHyc/edit?usp=sharing

 

More than happy to receive feedback, shape the topic in the CF community, and ideally in a follow-up step, gather a group of companies/individuals that take the topic further in Cloud Foundry open source.

 

Thanks,

Bernd

 

[1] https://www.cloudfoundry.org/community-calendar/ SIG Meeting: Cloud Foundry for Kubernetes

 

Bernd Krannich

SAP Cloud Platform

SAP SE

Dietmar-Hopp-Allee 16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany

 

bernd.krannich@...

 

Pflichtangaben/Mandatory Disclosure Statement: www.sap.com/impressum

 

Diese E-Mail kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, ist Ihnen eine Kenntnisnahme des Inhalts, eine Vervielfältigung oder Weitergabe der E-Mail ausdrücklich untersagt. Bitte benachrichtigen Sie uns und vernichten Sie die empfangene E-Mail. Vielen Dank.

 

This e-mail may contain trade secrets or privileged, undisclosed, or otherwise confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any review, copying, or distribution of it is strictly prohibited. Please inform us immediately and destroy the original transmittal. Thank you for your cooperation.


Announcing Cloud Foundry CLI v7 Release Plan

Josh Collins
 

Dear Cloud Foundry Community,


We are nearing the completion of the v7 CF CLI and we’re excited to announce that we’ll be cutting our GA release soon!

 

The exact target date for the launch hasn’t been finalized but because transitioning from v6 to v7 will require coordination and planning we’re sending an initial heads up. We'll send follow ups to this communication once the launch date and associated details become concrete.

 

In case you haven’t been following the development of the v7 CLI closely, here’s three of many new capabilities that will become available when v7 GAs:

  • Rolling Deploys using the "--strategy" flag for "cf push" and other commands

  • Metadata apply labels and annotations to apps, spaces, organizations, and other resources

  • Sidecar Processes for applications using application manifests


Current Plan:

  1. We’ll continue working through and finalizing the finer-grained details regarding the transition from v6 to v7 (these details will be sent as a follow up to this announcement in advance of the v7 GA)

  2. In the coming weeks, we’ll cut a feature complete v7 CLI release candidate (7.0.0-rc.1)

  3. We’ll coordinate with Release Integration (RelInt) team to integrate the RC v7 CLI into their CF-Deployment CI pipelines and iterate on fixes as necessary ‘till they run green 

  4. Once we’ve finalized and published the v6 to v7 transition plan & the RC v7 CLI has been passing successfully through RelInt’s CF-Deployment CI Pipelines, we’ll GA the v7 CLI

  5. Once the v7 CLI is GA, the active development and release of new features and bug fixes will take place on the v7 CLI, and as per Phase 2 of the v6 CLI deprecation plan, the v6 CLI will no longer be under active development and only be updated to fix severe bugs and or CVEs


While our goal is for the v6 to v7 CLI transition to be fairly easy, it is a major version bump containing breaking changes and a certain amount of impact is unavoidable. 


The previously published “Upgrading to cf cli v7” describes many of the breaking changes that will be included at launch. Although the doc isn’t final, it’s the best resource currently for those needing to understand the change required in day to day manual and/or automated workflows.

 

At the time of this communication, although the list of breaking changes included in the document linked above is nearly complete, it should not be considered comprehensive.

Once we complete our final review/audit we’ll publish an exhaustive list of the changes from v6 to v7 and we’ll send an announcement to the community.   


Automated scripts may break when v7 of the CLI GAs. To minimize disruption and allow for teams to migrate when ready, we will support pinning to the 6.x major version. Although this isn’t possible today, the CLI team is actively working on this capability and will send a follow-up communication with instructions once that work is complete.


Lastly, with the GA release of v7, we plan to update the CF-CLI Minimum Supported Version policy. A separate communication describing the intended changes will be sent to this distribution list soon. 


For more information about the v7 CLI, please visit Cloud Foundry docs, message us on slack, or visit our github.


Thanks,

Cloud Foundry CLI Contributors


Cloud Foundry Summit Goes Cloud Native

Chip Childers <cchilders@...>
 

It’s official, folks: Cloud Foundry Summit is going virtual. We’ve moved the Austin, Texas, event online to keep you — our fantastic community — safe and healthy during this unforeseen time. What was initially a one-day Summit will now be two half-days devoted to our developer and contributor communities so you can comfortably engage with presentations without spending the entire day in front of your computer.

We know this is a sea change for a community so fiercely devoted to quality in-person discussion. I look forward to our Summits every year, and I am also disappointed that I won’t get to see you all in person. But we remain committed to providing you with the same opportunities for collaboration and education that we’ve offered at all of our in-person Summits, even if the setting is your home office (or kitchen table).

We are working with our inimitable events team to design a virtual Summit that caters not only to the specific interests of our community, but to the abnormal circumstances in which we find ourselves. Cloud Foundry Virtual Summit will take place on Wednesday, June 24th and Thursday, June 25th for several hours each day, with sessions abbreviated to keep you engaged and networking opportunities meant to mimic the beloved “hallway track” at Summit. You’ll find special events like the Diversity Luncheon, Hands-on labs and Community Awards scheduled as usual — just in a different format than you’ve previously experienced. 

Contributors can register here for free using this code: CFNA20CON 

You’ll also notice that we’ve reopened the CFP now that Summit is going virtual, as the format will be a bit different. Check out the CFP submission process here and note that the new deadline is Friday, May 1st. You can submit a talk to the Developer Experience track, the Contributor track or the Diversity track. Feel free to reach out for CFP guidance by tagging @cfp-help in #summit on Cloud Foundry slack.

I imagine this news may not come as a surprise given how many events have moved online for the next few months, but I know it’s still a disappointment for our tight-knit community. I want to make sure that you get to shape this event to be exactly what you need it to be as we venture together into unknown territory. What features do you want to see in a virtual event? What pieces from Cloud Foundry Summit are a must-have? What tools have you used at online events that you loved, and what types of sessions most engaged you? This is feedback we need and want to make sure we make this new virtual summit the best possible experience for you — our community. Please email me or send me a DM on Cloud Foundry slack @chipchilders to share your learnings from other events and how we can serve you.

In the meantime, I hope you are staying safe at home and doing what you need to feel mentally, emotionally and physically healthy during this time. I appreciate your flexibility and understanding around this decision, and I look forward to seeing you from a safe distance at Summit!


Chip Childers
Executive Director
Cloud Foundry Foundation

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