+1 to what Bernd
wrote - this exactly echoes my thinking as well on the points made
Mit freundlichen
Grüßen / Kind regards
Simon Moser
Senior Technical Staff Member / IBM Master Inventor
Bluemix Application Platform Lead Architect
Dept. C727, IBM Research & Development Boeblingen
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Fax: +49-7031-16-4890
E-Mail: smoser@...
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*******
ITIL has led people to think in siloes ("go fix change management").
Project Management has led people to think in finite units of work instead
of streams of product.
Both are fundamental dysfunctions of the framework model, not failures
of execution.
⁃ Rob England
From:
"Krannich,
Bernd" <bernd.krannich@...>
To:
"cf-dev@..."
<cf-dev@...>
Date:
16/11/2020
08:15
Subject:
[EXTERNAL]
Re: [cf-dev] Thoughts on cf-for-k8s Use Cases
Sent
by: cf-dev@...
Hi Daniel, Thank you very
much for your additional questions....
| This
Message Is From an External Sender | | This
message came from outside your organization. |
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Hi
Daniel,
Thank
you very much for your additional questions. Let me try and answer some
of them from my perspective (this is me talking, not necessarily the “official
voice” of my employer):
>
It sounds like there are a lot of overheads for SAP in adopting cf-for-k8s.
More operational complexity managing many clusters, and then the effort
of migrating from cf-for-VMs to the new world. Is this all worth it?
We
actually approach the topic from a different angle: We have much more to
manage than „just“ CF – but many other services – and so the question
for us is which common layers we establish as basis for our offering. One
decision SAP has taken (and I hear that VMware, IBM, and Suse aren’t maybe
that much different) is to use Kubernetes as one such layer. And taking
that decision at our scale means a huge task in managing many clusters
anyways. Our answer for this is Gardener (shameless advertisement for an
SAP-initiated Open Source project: https://gardener.cloud/),
but YMMV.
>
Are end-users clamouring to be able to deploy things to Kubernetes alongside
their CF apps?
>
[…]
>
I wonder if all the migration efforts required to adopt cf-for-k8s are
worthwhile to existing users.
I
believe I referred to this topic during our CF Summit panel discussion:
I think there’s more than one group of end-users to consider:
- People using CF
today that are happy with it: I think they are in the “let me continue
to `cf push` my apps” camp and I believe they require feature parity to
the BOSH-managed world to continue doing what they do. I also think they
don’t care about Kubernetes as an underlay similar to how they didn’t
care about BOSH managing CF’s lifecycle before.
- People that tried
using CF but couldn’t build their scenarios. Some of these people have
what I would call a “mixed workload”: Things that could run on
CF and things that can’t. For them, the question is if they want
a “hybrid” model where they `cf push` their stateless apps to one system
and `kubectl apply` the other parts of their workload to a different system
or if they – once they have taken on the more difficult part of learning
Kubernetes anyways – also move over their stateless workloads to Kubernetes
directly. For this group of people, I feel, a value prop of “just having
the CF API next to kubectl” as an access point to their cluster is a good
thing. That’s also part of the reason why I’m suggesting to remove as
much of the CF control plane from the “workload cluster” in my document.
It’s their cluster and probably they want to do non-CF stuff with
it as well.
- People that approach
the topic coming from a Kubernetes background: Here, we keep seeing projects
over projects essentially re-inventing PaaS (some of them with an added
Git-Ops flavor on top). Things that are non-Kubernetes or things that can
be deployed on Kubernetes but “feel” non-K8s-native will not get them
engaged. Which is why a Cloud Foundry on Kubernetes will need to feel K8s-native
to be successful with this – probably very big – group.
>
The notion of specifying different target runtime environments per isolation
segment is intriguing. If this were possible, would it be simpler to stick
with cf-for-VMs, and have a Kubernetes cluster for each tenant that runs
apps and user workloads?
Not
for us, because it would still leave us with both BOSH-based deployments
as well as having to manage a huge fleet of K8s-clusters, so all of the
work with none of the benefits.
Regards,
Bernd
From:
cf-dev@... <cf-dev@...>
Date: Friday, 13. November 2020 at 10:26
To: Discussions about Cloud Foundry projects and the system overall.
<cf-dev@...>
Subject: Re: [cf-dev] Thoughts on cf-for-k8s Use Cases
Hey
all!
Thanks
for sharing your thoughts, Bernd.
It
sounds like there are a lot of overheads for SAP in adopting cf-for-k8s.
More operational complexity managing many clusters, and then the effort
of migrating from cf-for-VMs to the new world. Is this all worth it? Are
end-users clamouring to be able to deploy things to Kubernetes alongside
their CF apps?
The
notion of specifying different target runtime environments per isolation
segment is intriguing. If this were possible, would it be simpler to stick
with cf-for-VMs, and have a Kubernetes cluster for each tenant that runs
apps and user workloads? This would be exactly the same as running Eirini
on cf-for-VMs (which VMware published as an offering), except there'd be
the option for one-Kubernetes-per-tenant.
As
an aside, I do sincerely hope that the large CF vendors are intending to
heavily market CF as the easy mode for Kubernetes. I wonder if all the
migration efforts required to adopt cf-for-k8s are worthwhile to existingusers.
Regards,
Daniel
'Deejay' Jones - CEO
+44
(0)79 8000 9153
@DanielJonesEB
EngineerBetterLtd- More than cloud platform specialists
On
Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 17:34, Wayne E. Seguin <wayneeseguin@...>
wrote:
Bernd,
Fantastic!
I'm looking forward to reading it over, thank you for putting your thoughts
down!
Thanks,
~Wayne
Wayne
E. Seguin
CTO,
Stark & Wayne LLC
wayneeseguin@...
On
Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:37 AM Krannich, Bernd <bernd.krannich@...>
wrote:
Hello
all,
With
cf-for-k8s turning 1.0, I started putting my thoughts around “what’s
next after what’s next for cf-for-k8s?” in writing.
I
wanted to share the resulting document with the community to get feedback,
additional perspectives and maybe even to inspire thinking around the topics
I collected:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hk19MkUOGQmP_dkoCwkogRQqlBwGE0Bpgr2U96JhW3I/edit?usp=sharing
Thanks,
Bernd
Bernd
Krannich
SAP
Cloud Platform
SAP
SE
Dietmar-Hopp-Allee
16, 69190 Walldorf, Germany
E
bernd.krannich@...
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